David writes that, while momentum is a very good way to keep flames away, it's really solidified by proper code of conduct. I don't disagree with either of these positions, but they're both characteristics of a good culture that enables things to get done in a productive atmosphere, rather than the causes themselves.

One of the problems is that you can't enshrine, 'don't be a tool' in a code of conduct. Yes, you can legislate away personal attacks, so there's no more Serious problems with Mr. Troup, but it's still entirely possible to completely subvert the development process while still remaining within the bounds of any particular code of conduct. The key here is that the code of conduct is just a rough guide to, and a method of enforcement of, any given culture that you wish to enforce.

If you want to change Debian's current developmental culture, you'll need more than just a document: you'll need a landslide mindshift within the entire developer base, which will be extremely difficult to achieve, given that some particular developers seem to champion their lack of social skills, delight in annoying others, and glorify petty arguments on mailing lists as being superior to actually achieving anything. When you get this, the code of conduct is really just fluff, because it becomes almost entirely self-enforcing. The general tone of the list and attitude of the developers discourages people from being idiots, and you don't have to point to the code of conduct except in serious cases.

So that's the really hard part. Debian has a destructive culture that has led to debian-devel and debian-private becoming the pointless landfill it is today. Which is no slight on Debian developers as a group, or any particular developers; it's just the way it is today. How it got that way is entirely unclear, but how it's going to move on from there is an equally perplexing question.

And, in response to Joss, the two go hand in hand. Once you've stopped arguing for the sake of it, you're infinitely more productive as a result. So I don't think calling people advocating change in Debian's social norms 'teletubbies' is at all useful: these people aren't advocating turning Debian into a sewing club where we all turn up and talk about how much we love each particular developer. What they're advocating is change of the current Debian social culture such that trainwreck threads full of personal attacks, mindless bitching, and argument for the sake of it, don't exist anymore. You can have robust debate within that framework, and you don't have to completely vet every statement you make so it's a glowing reflection on everyone and everything mentioned. If you have the right culture, you can simply tell trolls once to go away, and they get utterly ignored, instead of having their threads blown up into huge all-consuming flamewars by people who seem to love seeing their name in the mailing list index. I don't see how you conclude that any hypothetical code of conduct exists purely to facilitate trolling either, but maybe I'm missing something.

The current problems in Debian with people being unable to relate to fellow developers, so instead getting bored and flaming them into the ground instead, isn't a techincal problem in the least. It's a social problem. The entire point of this debate isn't, 'which MTA should we install by default, if any', but 'how do we fix Debian's current culture?'. I don't see how this is a technical problem, but it does have technical ramifications (e.g. releases take years of banging our collective head against a very large wall).

Dear Erich,
Alright then.

Erich asserts loudly (in bold face, to make sure you didn't miss it), that Microsoft doesn't deliver. I wonder if he thinks that Debian delivers, or?

I'm wet for David Nusinow.

bunch of kids

I was doing the washing (or going to), so I decided to throw on my Debian shirt, which was still clean. A while later, the pizza delivery guy showed, and the first thing he said was, 'Oh cool, a Debian shirt. You use Linux?'.

Mad phat.

Put through a couple of my NMs today - Volker Janzen, and Jeroen van Wolffelaar. It felt good to finally do some processing - I've been putting it off for a while. Bugger 30-hour days, I think I need 60s. Still xlibs to try and pull off as well, especially with the libX11 maintainer not being able to do his merge until after the weekend ... :\

I have issued an olive branch. Let's see how this one goes.

I voted no. Why? How about 'Centrino drivers'? I'm tipping that, a couple of years ago, the pundits wouldn't have tipped that the next Intel laptop chipset would require non-capital-F-Free drivers to run.

I recognise that Debian, GNU, and others were founded to a large degree on idealism, and that this continues to be a large driving force. However, I think it is our responsibility to take a degree of pragmatism on board: we shouldn't be preventing those with Centrino chipsets from running Debian.

Also, if non-free gets dropped, the discussion will die. The 'problem', as you put it, will move to non-free.org, it'll be even more of a pain for people with Centrino chipsets, or nVidia graphics cards (surely no-one has those!), or whatever happens to have non-free drivers next. It'll get worse. Then people will start bitching about bringing non-free back. It's such an ideologically divided issue that you will never please everyone, or even the majority of the people. You just pick who you want to piss off and stick with it.

Reading Joerg's NM rant made me think. First, I want your scripts, dude. ;) Secondly, tbm suckered me in with one awesome NM to start with. It's been all downhill from there.